Ennie Lim：同理心如何改善工作场所

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
My guest today, Ennie Lim, is a refreshingly authentic fintech entrepreneur who has transformed her personal history of financial difficulty into a financial wellness company that offers loans, financial literacy and financial coaching programs. As the CEO and co-founder of HoneyBee, Ennie has brought her entire self to her company, willingly sharing her story to convince employers they can play an active role in their employees’ financial lives.

Ennie, welcome to EMERGE Everywhere.

Ennie Lim：
Thanks for having me.

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
Ennie,你是蜜蜂的创始人兼首席执行官。Tell us a little bit about your company and how it works. Let’s start there.

Ennie Lim：
Great. Well, you and your team at Financial Health Network know this issue very well. Economic inequalities already existed way before the pandemic, so I wanted to highlight some of the issues and why we do what we do, but what the pandemic really did is accelerated the need to get access to better financial tools. We started to see employers realize that it’s no longer a nice to have, but a must have to have additional financial wellness benefits, or any financial wellness benefits at all, in order to retain and attract that talent, especially in this tight labor market.

At HoneyBee, we saw a massive shift towards employers buying behavior because every industry was just trying to keep up to attract talent and compete for them. We became a really integral part of their retention and employee engagement strategy.

我们在Honeybee和我们的目标是确保每个工作的美国人都可以自由和平等获得财务工具，以改善自己和家人。我们通过提供无需下雨天的资金来实现这一目标。这意味着没有利息，没有滞纳金，没有订阅，没有小费和无限制获得金融疗法。

我们像治疗心理健康一样对待金融疗法。五分之一的心理健康问题与金钱问题有关。当您处理心理健康时，您可以在线阅读有关治疗自己的方法的信息，但是您确实无法比较获得一对一的治疗课程，这可能会改变这么多人的生活。我们以完全相同的方式看金融疗法，我们应该以同样的方式对待财务健康。当某人对财务状况不知所措时，就像我离婚后的五年前一样……

Speaking to a financial therapist, would’ve made really the world of a difference for me, and I know it would’ve made a huge difference for my mom that was the sole breadwinner for a household of five when she was struggling to get by. That’s what we do in a nutshell, and we also have our Honey Academy Program. We put these educational webinars together for employees and their families and their kids to attend some of these webinars. We customize that based on employers. Of course, all of this is paid by the employer and is 100% free access for employees.

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
Wow. You’ve given us so much to talk about, Ennie. As some of our listeners might know, HoneyBee was part of the Financial Health Network’s accelerator, part of the Financial Solutions Lab, so I’ve gotten to watch HoneyBee grow and develop from a pretty early moment in time.

If I remember correctly, I feel like your initial concept was enabling employees to take out loans against their outstanding vacation time, like trying to figure out what are assets that even low-wage workers have that they might be able to leverage. Now, clearly, similar idea, but you’ve pivoted in a whole host of different ways based on what you’ve learned in the market. Talk a little bit about how you got from that original idea to here and also tell us where the name HoneyBee comes from.

Ennie Lim：
绝对地。Well, we’ve been privileged to be part of Financial Health Network for a while now, and it’s amazing to be part of that network. You have seen different iterations of HoneyBee. I’ll start with HoneyBee, the name. The name comes from if you think about honeybees as insects, they’re really crucial insects for the ecosystem. They bring a product that brings wellness. We have to find ways to protect these honeybees from the environment and the same way we have to protect working Americans that’s bringing a lot of products that we use every day.

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
我喜欢那个。工人，工人蜜蜂，蜜蜂，喜欢它。

Ennie Lim：
确切地。Honeybee经历了一些关键的枢轴。从统计上讲，我认为每年有数百万个的付费假期都在桌上剩下数百万。美国公司对所有资产负债表上的所有未使用的PTO承担约3000亿美元的责任。这些是美国人拥有的资产。Honeybee希望利用该PTO来提供人们的信用，尤其是对于最需要它的人。

现在，尝试重复该人力资源。尽管从理论上讲这很棒，但我仍然认为这是一个超级天才的想法，但出售给人力资源非常困难。法律和劳动法中有很多问题……我们在开始时确实成功签署了大约10家公司，但是您可以想象所有这些问题使它成为一个非常漫长的销售周期。

就在大流行之前，我们想确保我们改变了该模型，这将是一个证明雇主是否要为此付费的案例，在世界有史以来最具挑战性的时期之一，以确保他们的员工可以100％免费访问所需的工具。

I know there’s a lot of fintech companies that provide a solution that’s free for employers, but the reality is somebody has to pay for those fees. I did come across that FinHealth report that Financial Health Network just published and you saw about $255 billion of interest in fees for everyday financial services are paid by vulnerable households. If we could figure out a way where they didn’t have to pay for anything… It just never felt right to earn revenue from a population that relied on it and had to borrow perpetually. That’s why we-

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
Now, why employers? Tell me why employers. That’s been a consistent through line for you from the very beginning of HoneyBee. Why are they important here? Did your business model shift work? Has this been a useful shift for businesses?

Ennie Lim：
是的，我先回答这个问题。值得庆幸的是，我们仍然在附近，是的，它确实有效。我认为我们现在已经有60多家公司了。像雇主一样的证明案例需要促进他们的福利……他们已经在购买小吃等费用。如果您只是将其投入其中并预算了少量费用以弥补员工的财务状况，那将使他们的世界变得有所不同。幸运的是，该枢轴确实有效。我们不确定何时开始以及何时发生大流行，但我很高兴我们开始看到雇主购买行为的转变。

为什么要雇主？我认为当我刚开始...我的联合创始人本尼（Benny）非常了解他，他的家人曾经拥有餐馆。每次员工面对紧急情况时，他的父亲都会发现自己向员工贷款。我妈妈亲身经历了它，因为她总是依靠她也从老板那里获得的贷款。只是在我们刚开始时与不同的行业交谈，我们开始意识到这在工作场所很普遍，但是没人真正谈论过它。

We came across employers that were like, “Yeah, I do lend employees money, but it really depends on if they’re crying or not.” There was no structure in place and no real way to collect that money back because it’s extremely awkward between employers and employees when you have to collect that money back from your employees.

We knew that there was an opportunity to solve this problem through the employer channel and then now, even more so, that employers cover it and employees have free access. They’re more engaged with the workforce and definitely feel more loyal. That’s why we’re definitely an integral part of their retention and engagement strategy today.

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that COVID has obviously driven significant demand from employers. Talent is so hard to come by right now. That, plus employers really seeing up close and personal the financial challenges that people have every day and how it can get in the way of work. I’m wondering if there are certain sectors, certain kinds of employers or certain sectors of the economy where an employee wellness solution seems to be a better fit or where the HR professionals and, frankly, the C-suite has a greater appreciation and understanding of the benefit.

Ennie Lim：
当我们开始时，我们从非营利部门开始，对非营利部门肯定有巨大的需求。我们开始扩展。我们看到的方式是，在10个美国人中，有近七个将薪水付给薪水。您可以想象有多少人需要它。我们不那么关注的一个行业可能是高薪科技行业。除此之外，我们研究了所有其他行业。

今天，我们正在与许多分销中心合作，很多非营利组织。你有博物馆。我们有学校，医疗保健，公用事业，水电，废物公用事业。如果您专注于美国低至中等收入的工人，我认为大约有8700万美国人属于该行业，那就是一个庞大的市场。这就是我们开始的方式。然后我们从不同的行业开始，但是现在我们肯定正在研究分手销售团队时的地区。

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
Got it. You’ve been at this for a few years now and I’m curious, what are you learning from the actual workers who are using your platform. Is there anything surprising that you’ve learned? Are there any stories that folks have shared with you about the difference that the product is making in their lives?

Ennie Lim：
绝对地。我们确实学到了一件事，我认为我们一开始就知道这一点……通过金融健康网络，我们必须与圣路易斯的华盛顿大学合作，从用户那里收集数据。万博电竞怎么玩结果确实令人惊讶，我们89％的用户是有色人种，主要是女性。我认为我们一直都知道这一点，但是看到黑人和白色确实在说明，因为我们能够减少工作场所的财务素养差距，并使人们获得信誉。

我们听到的一些故事，我不会说它们令人惊讶，但我认为这就是让我前进的原因是听这些故事。我有时会与这些用户接听电话，因为我认为这些故事是我们必须不断公开分享和我们团队的故事。在每个应用程序的末尾，都有一些部分可以为人力资源提供注释。我认为将这些笔记发送给人力资源非常重要，因为它们是实施此笔记的人，他们需要知道他们所做的事情对于使用它的人来说确实很有价值。

At the beginning of COVID, we saw kids were moving to virtual learning. We had a single mom that relied on meals that were provided for her daughter at school. Like one in six Americans, she started going to a food bank. She used the HoneyBee funds to pay for internet for the first time and for her daughter to get a computer, which is something they never had to do before.

We had a healthcare worker, she doesn’t have the luxury to work from home, like so many of us. She had to commute about two hours to work every day. This had happened before HoneyBee was implemented, but her car broke down. Before she had HoneyBee, she missed a week of work because she couldn’t figure out how to get cash for her car repair. Unfortunately, as a last resort ended going to a payday lender, paying about 500% in interest. In addition to that, you talk about it trickling into the workplace. Because she had missed an entire week of work, her colleagues had to cover her shift and do overtime.

Then you look at when she had HoneyBee, she was immediately able to get the funds she needed, no questions asked. Our financial therapist also helped her to save up to get a better secondhand car. I think those are some of the stories that we hear constantly. We think it’s important to get access to that no-cost loan. At first, they’re like, “What’s… This is too good to be true. Why is this free?” But in order to work with them financially, to meet their financial goals, they do need that education piece. I think that is so key and a huge component of what we’re offering.

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
我在这谈话多少公关oduct, the concept, the way you think about financial therapy… I’ve never heard anyone use that framing before. Super interesting. All of that really comes out of your own lived and personal experience. I think one of the things that’s really unique about you is your authenticity. You’re willing to talk about those experiences. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the story that you shared earlier about the challenges that you faced after your own divorce and if you can tell us more about how that led to the creation of HoneyBee.

Ennie Lim：
好吧，首先，谢谢。这意味着很多。我知道我对自己的背景和挫折非常透明。当我们开始Honeybee时，绝对不是这样。我很尴尬地谈论自己的挫折。当我们推出时，我住在父母的地下室，因为我无法获得任何公寓的批准，因为离婚影响了我的信誉。

You hit a new low in your mid 30s when your mom gives you money to buy groceries, but somehow, solving one of the most fundamental problems in the US still seemed like a really great idea. When we started, I was cold calling a lot of employers. I would even show up at distribution centers completely unannounced, but there was one pivotal meeting that really changed my perspective.

It was this one company. It was actually a city in the Bay Area. They had agreed to meet in person. There was about five people in the room I remember. Some of them included HR managers, directors, head of finance. I pitched HoneyBee like I always did at the very beginning. One person had said, “Our employees doesn’t look like they would need this.” That’s what really triggered me. I think that was my aha moment because I paused, and I asked her if I look like I was someone that needed financial help.

There was this awkward silence, but at that moment, I decided I was going to share about my financial setback. The last thing I said to them was that t嘿，绝不应该假设人们在大多数美国居住薪水支付薪水时都不需要获得财务帮助。Needless to say, I never signed that client, but a woman from that meeting had reached out to me after and thanked me for being so transparent. She was going through a divorce herself and had financial difficulties. It’s really unfortunate that she wasn’t able to share that experience that day.

Then that just became my purpose, to always be able to destigmatize access to financial help in the workplace by really encouraging people to open up about their setbacks, especially at the C level. That’s truly embedded in our culture today, not just about personal finances, but really creating a safe place that people can open up, share vulnerability and lean on each other to overcome their challenges. I’ve been pretty transparent about my struggle ever since. Sometimes it makes people uncomfortable. I’ve seen investors like, “Oh, that’s like overshare,” but it is what it is. I人们有更多的同情心，我确实觉得世界将是一个更好的地方。

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
我不同意你的看法。What’s so interesting about your being transparent and using yourself as an example of the need… lots of founders have stories that somehow connect to the purpose of their product, but I think one of the other reasons why your sharing is particularly brave is because of the additional burden or challenge that I’m guessing you face as a woman in fintech. I don’t have to tell you about all of the stories of women founders who just have a way tougher time raising money, whose ideas are often scoffed at, laughed at by male investors.

In a way, sharing that story potentially plays even more into some of the negative stereotypes that I think can lead to challenges for women. Talk a little bit more about how you’re navigating this world as a female founder. I mean, you were just named Inc’s Most Innovative Women Founders. Clearly, you’re doing something right, but you must have worked on this intentionally.

Ennie Lim：
Yeah, absolutely. I think like the barriers to entry, especially in fintech, is definitely high. As you know, the space is highly regulated. Not only is FinTech very much a boys club, but venture capital is still heavily male dominated. I like to think of it a lot like a meritocracy. They invest in people very similar to them. They will stick with their existing networks.

正如我在上一轮筹款活动中所看到的那样，风险投资公司正在雇用许多女同事，但是现实中，VC公司的决策者中只有12％是女性，甚至是有色女性。我认为这一旅程的很大一部分是我学会了优雅地接受拒绝。我觉得一般而言，女性总是必须应对更多的挑战和性别偏见，而不仅仅是金融科技或技术。

它发生每个行业。阅读，体育和娱乐真是令人沮丧。显然，要做的工作很多，但是我认为我的目标很大一部分是，在我经历这次旅程时，我确实想让我不得不经历这个经历的人更容易。每当我在金融科技或新企业家中看到女性时，我都会100％始终花时间喜欢：“如果您有任何疑问，如果您需要任何帮助，请告诉我”每个人？

我有这个对话在整个假期with my family, and I think about my twin nieces. If I could make it easier for someone like them when they grow up and hopefully they become an entrepreneur one day, the journey will just be a lot easier for them. I would actually like to ask you that same question. You’re a highly respected leader in a very male-dominated space. Have you faced similar challenges and how have you overcome them?

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
好吧，这是您如何成功的一个很好的例子，因为我从来没有让客人旋转麦克风。我喜欢那个。我认为我们可能有一些世代相传的差异，您和我长大了，在女性不得不穿着看起来像男装的大肩垫上的大肩垫可以证明自己可以被带走认真地说，这也是我们被告知女性可以拥有一切的时候。妇女可能会在工作场所，并在自己的职业生涯中有所作为，并有孩子并以某种方式做事。一切都可以解决。

我认为这并不需要很长时间，这并非完全正确。虽然我对所有在我面前的女人以及铺平了这条小径，使我能够真正能够做我想做的事情的那条小径，但这肯定并不容易。像您一样，我们谈论的是成为金融领域的女领导者和金融科技领导者，而且还分享有关您的个人经历的事情，在某些情况下可能与成为女性有负相关，我经营一个具有使命的非营利组织。还有一种刻板印象。

I often am seen as the do gooder. That’s the thing that I’ve always focused on is making sure I’m being taken seriously and that the work and the mission is being taken seriously. It’s not just a nice idea, but as a game changer that really impacts the lives of the majority of Americans and is going to impact the businesses of the companies and organizations we work with. It doesn’t sound like it’s getting easier, but it does sound like it’s something that we’re at least able to talk about and acknowledge in a more full way. So I really appreciate the question.

Ennie Lim：
Thanks for sharing that. I think it’s so interesting when you talk about impact focus because we’re a for profit, but we are definitely impact focused and there is negative connotation, especially when you’re pitching to investors, because they’re like, “Well, we want to make a lot of profit. How are we going to do that?” I’ve had so many pitches and investors like, “We don’t like the fact that it’s too impact focused.”

我开始删除……迎合我的听众。有时，我会从我的球场上删除它，以至于我们如此以任务为驱动和影响力的重点，更多地专注于数量，增长和利润。这很有趣，因为我不得不迎合那些受众，但是有趣的是。

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
我认为，在社会影响世界中，无论某个人的任务和边际范围在任何地方，这都是关于平衡对观众量身定制信息的想法，而同时，并没有失去真正重要的事情。我认为这是我认为我们通过金融解决方案实验室面对的最具挑战性的事情之一。所有这些都是我们加速器的一部分，因为它们以某种方式与更广泛的任务联系在一起。他们也都在努力赚钱。

We fundamentally believe that one can do both of those things at the same time. Despite the fact that there’s been a lot of movement in the world towards that idea, particularly with folks who are focused on return and focused on finance, it can be hard to make that case that there doesn’t have to be a trade off.

Ennie Lim：
绝对地。

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
恩妮，告诉我今年我们对Honeybee的期望。当您谈论这件事时，很想听到您反思自己认为雇主对金融健康解决方案的热情将会发生的事情，正如上帝愿意的那样，大流行充满希望，希望能开始退缩。您是否完全担心这会像锅中的闪光灯一样？

Ennie Lim：
我将回答第一个问题。2022年，我真的相信……而且我知道每个创始人每年都这样说，但这对我们今年来说将是一个关键时刻。我们正在与任务保持一致的公司建立许多牢固的合作伙伴关系。我们有极其忠实的客户。我们发现，公司看到的是为了有效竞争而增加其财务健康的重要性。我认为重要的是……我为我们所做的所有事情中最骄傲的是，即使是一个完全偏远的团队，我也真正建立了强大的文化。

We really have an unbelievable team that has the skillset and ambition to help us, to help HoneyBee grow exponentially. Really proud of how far we’ve come. It is very tough to build a team that is focused on the mission. I think like that’s what we’ve done successfully really well.

第二个问题是我们对雇主的期望。我们确实看到了当事业发生时发生的转变，五分之一的家庭正在失去收入收入者。雇主肯定看到了这有多重要，因为雇员在减少时间时受到了影响，他们正在休假。那是2020年初。然后，您看到了这场人才比赛。

然后，您必须看到像亚马逊这样的公司和Target类型的领导方式，因为那是触发雇主的原因。他们就像，“好吧，我们不希望所有这些大型公司都吸引所有员工。”然后，我知道……通过工人计划，您也知道您与多家大型公司合作。他们必须领导道路，并且已经在这样做。

You’re going to see more of these larger companies put these financial wellness benefit as the forefront, and everyone will just start to follow. I think like 401k 40 years ago might have seemed crazy to a lot of employers like, “Why are we paying for this? Why are we investing in this? Why are we matching?” But it is just part of every package today to invest in your employees’ retirement savings and to help them as they retire. I’m sure a lot of employees thought that was crazy, but I think we’re seeing more and more of the employees and the employers are starting to realize how important this is.

我的希望是……我们的管道中有很多大型公司，而他们将引领途径。我认为这就是为什么我们的重点就像是真正看这些大公司，因为它们越多地领先，中型市场和较小的公司就越容易实现。

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
只是成为标准实践。

Ennie Lim：
Yes, exactly.

詹妮弗·特舍尔（Jennifer Tescher）：
好吧，恩妮（Ennie），祝您和2022年的Honeybee团队最幸运。感谢您加入我的行列。

Ennie Lim：
非常感谢，詹妮弗。见到你总是很高兴。